84 replies to this topic

[Minoas]

Sulfuras, on 19 May 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

This is DPS? ROFL do you seen DPS of fury warr or rogue or warlock?

Fury contribution to a raid group is indisputably inferior to slam spec. And if the encounter is optimal for the use of this spec, then it's hands down 20%-30% more DPS efficient than fury can be.

[Shade]

Fury is the best pve dps for warriors in patch 2.4.3. Regarding the arms spec.... You need to be hit capped to even be considering this spec.

[Minoas]

Hitcap is really easy to achieve as arms, hence the huge advantage over fury. And PVE MS has superior dps to fury on private servers , especially in endgame gear

[Scruff]

Arms has superior dps to Fury regardless of gear or whether it's a private server. It's simple, Arms increases nearly half the raid's damage by 4%. Sure, it might do a small bit less dps than Fury if you're just looking at the Warrior's dps alone, but that's only if the Arms warrior isn't skilled or is having latency issues.

It's just simple math, nothing to be scared of.

[Sulfuras]

kk, wanna math?

we have 10x phys DPSers with 2k DPS its 20k DPS yes?

4%=+800 DPS

Whats Arms war DPS? 1200 max in same lvl gear as Fury can do 2k.

So we can see, Arms can be same as Fury if we have 20k phys ONLY dps.

But! You may be in top guild to get 20k phys DPS and even if you have this DPS, somebody can die -DPS.

All calculations made on pre-BT BiS gear, they are some rough but thats enough.




P.S. BC top DPSers-spell classes, especially warlocks.

[Forgus]

Does that matter? The point still stands that your DPS as arms will be the highest if you say that the extra 4% DPS from physical is yours. Remember, that at T4 content everybody does lower DPS than in T6.

[Sulfuras]

You can deal near 2k DPS in fury with right buffs and right rotation, Arms req almost full raid of phys DPS, and its req them alive, so thats not option.

[Scruff]

Sulfuras, on 21 May 2011 - 01:00 AM, said:

You can deal near 2k DPS in fury with right buffs and right rotation, Arms req almost full raid of phys DPS, and its req them alive, so thats not option.

And I'm guessing that you're basing your argument that Arms can't do good dps because you've never seen an Arms/Fury hybrid Slam spec? An Arms 33/28/0 does almost as much dps as the standard 17/44/0 Fury spec. But hey, what do I know?

[Diggit]

I was my guilds dedicated DPS warrior in TBC and the first raiding warrior on my server to go PvE arms that I know of... within a month of me going arms almost every guild on the server had their DPS warrior switch to arms after they all saw our WWS reports, the only reason I know that is because almost every single one of them from every guild sent me tells asking me to explain the rotation and spec (this was late SSC/The Eye very early Hyjal/BT).

Unless you're a mega baddie and all of the rogues/hunters in your guild hump, your DPS done + the added DPS to the raid (which is threat free since the tank gets the same damage increase) will most of the time make you the highest damage dealer in the raid by far unless it is an anti-melee fight... to be honest, there is NO reason to have a fury warrior in the raid past a certain gear point (once you get your first cats edge drop), rogues/hunters will do more damage so your ONE dps warrior should be arms for almost all T6 and up content in TBC.

Until you have at the very least the Kael'thas sword, Badge Axe, Gorefiend axe, one of the third tier BS weapons or season 2 or greater arena 2h'ers, I wouldn't bother with PvE arms. Archimondes sword is what I used up until wrath was released, I had originally specced PvE-MS with World Breaker, it was ok I guess but since mace spec blew for pve it really wasn't worth it at the time so I went back to fury until I got the Twinblade from Kael'thas then shortly after the Cats edge.

Edit: Also, Sulfuras, I don't know for sure what you posted that video for but the only DPS warrior they had was arms and he was still holding his own on a relatively anti-arms warrior fight (had lots of running around) he was hovering around 8-10th spot on the meters most of the fight and then when you add all of the added damage from blood frenzy it would put him in first by quite a bit since 7 out of their top 10 DPS were all physical damage dealers.

[Sulfuras]

In theory yes.

But do I need to make a fury warr on BC to prove you, I'm right?

[Diggit]

For pre-raid/T4/early-mid T5 content, fury will edge out arms in total effective DPS added to the raid but once you hit around mid-late T5 content arms starts to pull away, then by the time you hit mid-late T6 stuff there is no competition, arms will beat fury in total DPS. If you are the only DPS warrior (and most guilds only had one, maybe two but never in the same raid) the only excuse for being fury over arms would be if you were selfish and wanted your own DPS to be a hundred higher over having your raids DPS be a thousand higher.

[Scruff]

One reason that Arms starts to pull away is because of how well it scales with weapon damage compared to Fury. Slam scales magnificently with gear in comparison to almost any other ability, you just have to be good enough to time Slams directly after auto-attack swings (reason for having Quartz). On retail, almost every dps warrior had switched to Slam spec by the time they were in T6, sometimes switching in T5 even.

Common Slam spec: http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=2438606_1_733c5001352010500221e505d501520203z00

[Diggit]

I use to take sweeping strikes instead of the one point in execute for trash (ugh, Hyjal) but other than that, that was my exact spec. Also, to add to what you said, arms not only scales better with your own gear but the entire raids gear as well (even casters a little bit), Blood frenzy increases TPS of tanks some as well which in turn lets casters start nuking earlier. TBC was all about min/maxing and support classes, every percent you could squeeze out of any class to buff the total raid DPS counted and actually mattered (Full night of 1% Brutallus wipes just to find out someone wasn't potting?! Huzzah!), they pretty much destroyed that with wraths raid wide buffs and now in cata it's non-existent I guess since everyone can restore their own mana, heal themselves and do six billion DPS all at the same time.

[Minoas]

Diggit, on 21 May 2011 - 06:55 AM, said:

I was my guilds dedicated DPS warrior in TBC and the first raiding warrior on my server to go PvE arms that I know of... within a month of me going arms almost every guild on the server had their DPS warrior switch to arms after they all saw our WWS reports, the only reason I know that is because almost every single one of them from every guild sent me tells asking me to explain the rotation and spec (this was late SSC/The Eye very early Hyjal/BT).

Unless you're a mega baddie and all of the rogues/hunters in your guild hump, your DPS done + the added DPS to the raid (which is threat free since the tank gets the same damage increase) will most of the time make you the highest damage dealer in the raid by far unless it is an anti-melee fight... to be honest, there is NO reason to have a fury warrior in the raid past a certain gear point (once you get your first cats edge drop), rogues/hunters will do more damage so your ONE dps warrior should be arms for almost all T6 and up content in TBC.

Until you have at the very least the Kael'thas sword, Badge Axe, Gorefiend axe, one of the third tier BS weapons or season 2 or greater arena 2h'ers, I wouldn't bother with PvE arms. Archimondes sword is what I used up until wrath was released, I had originally specced PvE-MS with World Breaker, it was ok I guess but since mace spec blew for pve it really wasn't worth it at the time so I went back to fury until I got the Twinblade from Kael'thas then shortly after the Cats edge.

Edit: Also, Sulfuras, I don't know for sure what you posted that video for but the only DPS warrior they had was arms and he was still holding his own on a relatively anti-arms warrior fight (had lots of running around) he was hovering around 8-10th spot on the meters most of the fight and then when you add all of the added damage from blood frenzy it would put him in first by quite a bit since 7 out of their top 10 DPS were all physical damage dealers.

Here is someone that knows what he's talking about. I salute you Diggit. Arms is not superior only from the blood frenzy factor, but also because Bloodthirst doesn't benefit from Impale on Pservers so in other words MS slam has an exponential growth in raid efficiency, whereas fury tends to reach some point where it's affected by diminishing returns. Do also consider that Sunwell gear is very hit rating- light, so stats come with some painful stat allocations.

As for Arms, Its efficiency revolves around the weapon you weild as you very adequately put it. In order to maintain the rotation you'd ideally need a 550 top end 2 hander, so in other words you must have a well sorted out Crit oriented gear with a satisfactory sword to be any good with it

[Scruff]

Both of you, Minoas and Diggit, have pretty much spelled out every reason to go Arms for the most part. As for myself, I would like to add that it's the most unique dps playstyle that I have ever played on WoW.

To reply to you, Diggit, I also take Sweeping Strikes in my spec. The spec I posted was the most basic and highest single-target dps output spec that could be used. I personally like to allocate a couple more points into the Parry talent to max it out, as it's very useful for soloing and you don't lose much dps by taking it. As for Sweeping Strikes, I love it and would never give it up, even though it has been the cause for my death many times over the years.

[Minoas]

Scruff, on 23 May 2011 - 08:08 AM, said:

Both of you, Minoas and Diggit, have pretty much spelled out every reason to go Arms for the most part. As for myself, I would like to add that it's the most unique dps playstyle that I have ever played on WoW.

To reply to you, Diggit, I also take Sweeping Strikes in my spec. The spec I posted was the most basic and highest single-target dps output spec that could be used. I personally like to allocate a couple more points into the Parry talent to max it out, as it's very useful for soloing and you don't lose much dps by taking it. As for Sweeping Strikes, I love it and would never give it up, even though it has been the cause for my death many times over the years.

Defenetly, and if anything sweeping strikes benefit immensly from the 2hander burst. On 25 man packs that have more than 90k hp, no fury warrior can keep up with the sheer unload of damage simply one of the most challenging and most rewarding specs to master

[jodawoda]

At T6 level of gear Arms warrior's DPS provided for a raid is by far a lot better than Fury warrior's one. However personal DPS will always be higher for a fury warrior, but the more into TBC content, this difference lowers. At T6/SWP Fury is not far over the Arms unless its a doublewarglaive-fullygeared-bloodthirstrotationed Fury warrior

[shepred]

From reading what most people said about arms warriors not doing very competitive dps and how fury is better. I've get the feeling that these people never played an arms warrior or have seen one played well when BC was out.

In the debate between the two specs:
Fury is better for Kara-Mid T5 raiding.
Arms is all about gear, grouping and crit, meaning that an arms warrior need over 40% crit (from gear alone not gemming for crit) is when the said arms warrior will be viable as dps and will pull ahead of most fury warriors when played correctly. Also for grouping, if the said arms warrior is not in a group with a WF totem they are going to be rage starved and won't be able to generate rage at a constant rate.

I personally played an arms warrior during BC and had over 52% crit in raids and was pushing 2500-3500 dps depending on the fight and almost always top damage during bosses. While the other fury warrior and rogues who were better gear than me were doing considerably less damage.

[Diggit]

I agree, group composition is probably the most important thing when it comes to arms warrior DPS. Having a shaman (more specifically, an enhance shaman specced in to totems and capable of totem twisting back when they still had to do that) and to a lesser extent, a BM hunter, makes a huge difference. I usually floated around 2-2.5k DPS on most things because our guild never found an enhance shaman that could get past the "Press power button to turn computer on" step of playing WoW. Seriously, we had one that was dual wielding daggers for a while for extra flurry procs, he sure was "special".

After they messed with slam and made it so it didn't reset your swing timer, taking all of the fun out of playing arms, you could easily drop 4k+ DPS just spamming slam non stop as long as you had WF.


While we're on the subject, I recently found this awesome screen shot from my arms raiding days... man I miss TBC raiding... and yea I was a bubblegum pink haired gnome, wanna fight about it?

[AntiHerO]

bottom line is :
pve=fury=more dps
pvp=arms=burst inc
in bigger raids it depends on ur group and gear i guess .....