Vanilla WotLK
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So, I'm curious if you guys will ever make and release Wrath of the Lich King. I find WotLK was the best expansion pack so far and I know a lot of people do as well and who will play it consistantly. As long as it doesn't exceed past that expansion pack. Blizzard is already on a 5th and final (hopefully) expansion pack.

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"I find WotLK was the best expansion pack so far"

I lol'd. Let me guess, you started playing during WotLK or late TBC right before WotLK was released?

Most of the players play here because they don't like the other expansions and because there aren't many Vanilla/TBC servers. My personal opinion is that WotLK is a heap of crap, it's a game that's about collecting shiny items and not about beating challenging bosses. However there are a lot of WotLK servers out there. Why don't you play on other servers if you like this expansion so much?

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WotLK is a heap of crap, it's a game that's about collecting shiny items and not about beating challenging bosses.

Never did Ulduar then?

WotLK wasn't the best xpac but it was plenty challenging.

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Is this a joke thread? Wrath of the Lich King was just as awful as the two expansions that followed it.

Go away.

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"I find WotLK was the best expansion pack so far"

I lol'd. Let me guess, you started playing during WotLK or late TBC right before WotLK was released?

Most of the players play here because they don't like the other expansions and because there aren't many Vanilla/TBC servers. My personal opinion is that WotLK is a heap of crap, it's a game that's about collecting shiny items and not about beating challenging bosses. However there are a lot of WotLK servers out there. Why don't you play on other servers if you like this expansion so much?

LK at level 80 I would agree with you...

But twinking at level 60 with my Ret Paladin on the other hand like these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sFvBVsF_18

or

was the best time I ever had playing WoW :(

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"I find WotLK was the best expansion pack so far"

I lol'd. Let me guess, you started playing during WotLK or late TBC right before WotLK was released?

Most of the players play here because they don't like the other expansions and because there aren't many Vanilla/TBC servers. My personal opinion is that WotLK is a heap of crap, it's a game that's about collecting shiny items and not about beating challenging bosses. However there are a lot of WotLK servers out there. Why don't you play on other servers if you like this expansion so much?

I'll have to agree with the fact that people who say this are people who didn't play Ulduar or ICC.

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Never did Ulduar then?

WotLK wasn't the best xpac but it was plenty challenging.

I'll have to agree with the fact that people who say this are people who didn't play Ulduar or ICC.

Please don't generalise. That's most definetly not a fact. I guess most people who hated WotLK are those who raided hardcore during Classic and TBC.

I for my part raided hardcore during WoTLK and cleared everything expect for LK HC and Ruby Sanctum (quit earlier, guild never downed LK because too hard and lack of members/motivation). We got a lot of server firsts but struggled a lot with motivation. So did plenty of other good raiding guilds on our server. A lot of them who were top guilds druing Classic and BC (clearing Naxx, clearing SWP prenerf) were disbanded during WotLK.

So no, most people who hated WotLK raided earlier and liked the challange. I understand that many people like that expansion because they had a chance to see some content without much time investment. Well I didn't, my personal opinion.

Except for a few really challenging encounters WotLK didn't even come close to the fun you had when raiding during Vanilla/TBC.

And Ulduar was a joke, except for Mimiron HC, Yogg-Saron HC and Algalon everything else was boring. What kind of Content is that? 3 Bosses that are interesting in hard mode and the rest trash?

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Please don't generalise. That's most definetly not a fact. I guess most people who hated WotLK are those who raided hardcore during Classic and TBC.

I for my part raided hardcore during WoTLK and cleared everything expect for LK HC and Ruby Sanctum (quit earlier, guild never downed LK because too hard and lack of members/motivation). We got a lot of server firsts but struggled a lot with motivation. So did plenty of other good raiding guilds on our server. A lot of them who were top guilds druing Classic and BC (clearing Naxx, clearing SWP prenerf) were disbanded during WotLK.

So no, most people who hated WotLK raided earlier and liked the challange. I understand that many people like that expansion because they had a chance to see some content without much time investment. Well I didn't, my personal opinion.

Except for a few really challenging encounters WotLK didn't even come close to the fun you had when raiding during Vanilla/TBC.

And Ulduar was a joke, except for Mimiron HC, Yogg-Saron HC and Algalon everything else was boring. What kind of Content is that? 3 Bosses that are interesting in hard mode and the rest trash?

Freya hardmode was a lot harder than Mimi hardmode. And Yogg-Saron's various difficulty levels more than make up for any other fight that might have been lacking. Among the fights in Ulduar, easy or hard, players were engaged or otherwise entertained by the memorable cast of characters. And the aesthetic/music. Ulduar was a masterpiece. ToC on the other hand was a joke, so I'll give you that, even though you didn't bring it up. ICC was almost insultingly easy until HM LK which was grueling and tedious and unforgiving -- everything a hardcore raider could ask for. Maybe too little too late, but it was there. I guess if you never killed it then you wouldn't know though. :(

Players and top guilds dropping off in WotLK may have been a reflection of the early/entry level content (read: Naxx because hardmode OS kept a lot of guilds busy) but there are a lot of reasons people quit. Burnout, class design, pvp, hating daily quests, whatever. WotLK gets way too much flak when it was a perfectly good expansion.

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Freya hardmode was a lot harder than Mimi hardmode. And Yogg-Saron's various difficulty levels more than make up for any other fight that might have been lacking. Among the fights in Ulduar, easy or hard, players were engaged or otherwise entertained by the memorable cast of characters. And the aesthetic/music. Ulduar was a masterpiece. ToC on the other hand was a joke, so I'll give you that, even though you didn't bring it up. ICC was almost insultingly easy until HM LK which was grueling and tedious and unforgiving -- everything a hardcore raider could ask for. Maybe too little too late, but it was there. I guess if you never killed it then you wouldn't know though. :(

Players and top guilds dropping off in WotLK may have been a reflection of the early/entry level content (read: Naxx because hardmode OS kept a lot of guilds busy) but there are a lot of reasons people quit. Burnout, class design, pvp, hating daily quests, whatever. WotLK gets way too much flak when it was a perfectly good expansion.

Retribution was the best its ever been in LK - especially for 60 twinking :( - Holy Power's introduction in Cataclysm was the beginning of the end for me playing retail and MoP was the last nail in the coffin once I found out about Feenix and haven't looked back since coming here a year ago.

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Yeah, I played a ret paladin in seasons 5 and 6, holy cow that was a blast. I got a proc trinket from 25man Sapphiron (don't remember the name, it shot a shadowbolt or something) and the DMC: Death trinket, both of which could proc off Hand of Reckoning when it still dealt damage to players. So Hand of Reck, trinket proc(s), Judgment, Divine Storm = hilarious burst potential.

Plus, The Art of War was dope. I agree about Holy Power, it really took a lot away from the class. The whole MoP design strategy of removing the spells perceived as bulky or situational (Mind Soothe, Holy Nova, Divine Intervention) kinda soured my experience as well.

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Yeah, I played a ret paladin in seasons 5 and 6, holy cow that was a blast. I got a proc trinket from 25man Sapphiron (don't remember the name, it shot a shadowbolt or something) and the DMC: Death trinket, both of which could proc off Hand of Reckoning when it still dealt damage to players. So Hand of Reck, trinket proc(s), Judgment, Divine Storm = hilarious burst potential.

Plus, The Art of War was dope. I agree about Holy Power, it really took a lot away from the class. The whole MoP design strategy of removing the spells perceived as bulky or situational (Mind Soothe, Holy Nova, Divine Intervention) kinda soured my experience as well.

We lost too much just to gain an interrupt - aka magic cleanse et al

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Freya hardmode was a lot harder than Mimi hardmode.

Are you serious? Mimiron was definetly harder. Much harder. Many guilds defeated Freya but not Mimiron. By far not every server had a guild that was able to defeat Mimiron in 25H.

And Yogg-Saron's various difficulty levels more than make up for any other fight that might have been lacking.

True, that was one hell of an encounter, but I don't think it's enough to compensate for the other bosses. (Though that bastard with one light in the darkness is definetly one of my favourite encounters in the game. alone was (almost) impossible with t8 gear)

ICC was almost insultingly easy until HM LK

Well not every encounter was, but many. I liked Putricide a lot, he was definetly not that easy and Blood Queen something wasn't bad either. But in general yes, ICC wasn't that great:

I didn't mention ToC because it's just not worth mentioning. Except for the last two encounters it's a joke.

Players and top guilds dropping off in WotLK may have been a reflection of the early/entry level content (read: Naxx because hardmode OS kept a lot of guilds busy) but there are a lot of reasons people quit. Burnout, class design, pvp, hating daily quests, whatever. WotLK gets way too much flak when it was a perfectly good expansion.

All the good guilds on my server lacked members during the whole expansion because there wasn't any real challenge, or at least to few encounters worth mentioning. WotLK might be a good expansion, but a good expansion for others, for casual players, because they were able to see its content without much effort. Wrath had some good aspects in class design (no more shadow bolt spam in raids) and looking back at the expansion, the idea of hard modes in general isn't that bad. But clearing the content once in easy mode and then progressing in hardmode had a great impact on the overall experience and makes the game less suited for hardcore raiders. It's just something different if you finally stand before the final boss after weeks/months of progress and sleepless nights.

BTW I actually have no idea how the game was/is during Cata and MoP, somewhat similar to WotLK?

BTT:

If you really want to play on a WotLK server, just search for some WoW private server top sites. You should notice that most of them are Wrath servers. However, it might be difficult to find a server that actually has blizzlike scripts. Is that the reason why you're asking for a WotLK server?

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It's very en vogue to hate on expansions post TBC. However, the only thing it does is betray that person's ignorance about what quality is. Sure, they downgraded a lot of what made this game what it was... but not without considerable merit in return.

I'm tired of this militant, self-righteous mantra of "You must be a fool or a nice guy or have never played Vanilla/TBC to think WotLK, Cata, or even Pandaria, are good games." Enough, you don't know what you're talking about.

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You're all OT....

This is a Vanilla "Forum"....

...go talk about WotLK on the Off-Topic forum, please.

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BTW I actually have no idea how the game was/is during Cata and MoP, somewhat similar to WotLK?

Similar, but Blizzard made a massive blunder in trying to make 10man raids viable. I say this as a person that jumped at the opportunity to raid 10mans instead of 25s because 10s are more fun and more of a personal experience for a guild. As it happens, they are (by and large) much easier than 25mans, and Blizzard attempted to make both difficulties into competitive avenues for raiders. They did this by adding shared lockouts and having both difficulties drop all the same gear. In Wrath, you would raid 25mans with your guild on raid nights and then pug or run 10mans with friends on off nights. To me that was perfect balance, mixing progression with a more fun and laidback approach to raiding, all the while still gaining heaps of tokens/badges/points/whatever for your efforts.

With shared lockouts and essentially having to "choose" 10 or 25 going forward, a lot of guilds were torn asunder or just horribly mismanaged. There's not a lot of incentive to be a 25man guild anymore, just a slightly greater amount of loot per boss per player in raid. imo not worth it. 25man guilds are running on the fumes of prestige. Due to economy of space and 10s/25s both using the same rooms for boss fights, you could argue that 25s are still objectively more difficult (for little added benefit) for the most part.

Content-wise, raid size aside, I thought the beginning of Cataclysm was refreshingly difficult. Tier 11 gave my guild a run for its money, and we never even made it to Sinestra because we couldn't kill Heroic Ascendant Council. Heh. The Firelands was moderately challenging at launch, but it was nerfed into oblivion in a matter of weeks. Heroic Ragnaros remains one of my absolute favorite encounters to this day, but that too was ultimately nerfed, which spoiled future kills for us. And I won't lie, I resented the fact that other guilds were killing it on "nerfed" mode after my guild worked hard for our kill. :(

Dragon Soul was trash. Pure trash. No saving grace. Instead of releasing it and then nerfing it right away, they just released it already nerfed. Dragon Soul was such a pathetically easy piss poor joke of a dungeon that I feel sick when I think about people spending more than a month on it. Everything from the ambient to the musical score was utter trash. The bosses themselves were insignificant characters they couldn't even force us to care about if they held a gun to our head--a random orc shaman and a random tauren warrior among them. Deathwing was not only laughably easy, but also artificially extended to make it take more time than the rest of Dragon Soul's boss fights combined. It's a roughly 15-20min marathon fight, with the only remotely hard thing happening in the last 50 seconds. Altogether a poorly designed raid instance with nothing going for it. I can't think of a single thing I liked about Dragon Soul. They even dropped the ball on wrapping up Thrall's story arc!

I enjoyed raiding in Pandaria. Boss fights brought challenging mechanics, great scenery and characterization, and best of all you didn't get fully epic'd out gear just for reaching level cap. Unless you count LFR gear, but let's not :( I probably would have kept playing if my guild didn't collectively burn out a few months ago.

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Similar, but Blizzard made a massive blunder in trying to make 10man raids viable. I say this as a person that jumped at the opportunity to raid 10mans instead of 25s because 10s are more fun and more of a personal experience for a guild. As it happens, they are (by and large) much easier than 25mans, and Blizzard attempted to make both difficulties into competitive avenues for raiders. They did this by adding shared lockouts and having both difficulties drop all the same gear. In Wrath, you would raid 25mans with your guild on raid nights and then pug or run 10mans with friends on off nights. To me that was perfect balance, mixing progression with a more fun and laidback approach to raiding, all the while still gaining heaps of tokens/badges/points/whatever for your efforts.

With shared lockouts and essentially having to "choose" 10 or 25 going forward, a lot of guilds were torn asunder or just horribly mismanaged. There's not a lot of incentive to be a 25man guild anymore, just a slightly greater amount of loot per boss per player in raid. imo not worth it. 25man guilds are running on the fumes of prestige. Due to economy of space and 10s/25s both using the same rooms for boss fights, you could argue that 25s are still objectively more difficult (for little added benefit) for the most part.

Content-wise, raid size aside, I thought the beginning of Cataclysm was refreshingly difficult. Tier 11 gave my guild a run for its money, and we never even made it to Sinestra because we couldn't kill Heroic Ascendant Council. Heh. The Firelands was moderately challenging at launch, but it was nerfed into oblivion in a matter of weeks. Heroic Ragnaros remains one of my absolute favorite encounters to this day, but that too was ultimately nerfed, which spoiled future kills for us. And I won't lie, I resented the fact that other guilds were killing it on "nerfed" mode after my guild worked hard for our kill. :(

Dragon Soul was trash. Pure trash. No saving grace. Instead of releasing it and then nerfing it right away, they just released it already nerfed. Dragon Soul was such a pathetically easy piss poor joke of a dungeon that I feel sick when I think about people spending more than a month on it. Everything from the ambient to the musical score was utter trash. The bosses themselves were insignificant characters they couldn't even force us to care about if they held a gun to our head--a random orc shaman and a random tauren warrior among them. Deathwing was not only laughably easy, but also artificially extended to make it take more time than the rest of Dragon Soul's boss fights combined. It's a roughly 15-20min marathon fight, with the only remotely hard thing happening in the last 50 seconds. Altogether a poorly designed raid instance with nothing going for it. I can't think of a single thing I liked about Dragon Soul. They even dropped the ball on wrapping up Thrall's story arc!

I enjoyed raiding in Pandaria. Boss fights brought challenging mechanics, great scenery and characterization, and best of all you didn't get fully epic'd out gear just for reaching level cap. Unless you count LFR gear, but let's not :( I probably would have kept playing if my guild didn't collectively burn out a few months ago.

I spent most of Cataclysm in SW waiting for LFD or LFR to pop - blizzard dropped the ball completely with those two $hite ideas - there was no reason to leave the city

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The problem is, most wotlk servers are 100000x rates or instant 80, if feenix made a ED style wotlk server with gradual content it would be pretty decent.

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Thank you very much for the information about Cata. I still have a question though. Were even the hard modes so ridiculously easy?

The problem is, most wotlk servers are 100000x rates or instant 80, if feenix made a ED style wotlk server with gradual content it would be pretty decent.

If you search a bit you'll find servers that aren't high rates or instant 80. But I think the problem here really is to find a server with gradual content release. With the latest patch you can skip pretty much everything and go straight for T9 and miss the best part for casual players (Naxx is the best Raid dungeon I've seen so far and though it was very easy it's perfect for casual players. Especially the ambience/music is marvellous, i get goosebumps just thinking of it)

But I think it might also be a problem to find a server with decent scripts.

However, I don't think that feenix will open a WotlK server in the near future simply because there is still a lot of work to do. Archangel is at T5 and scripting T6/SWP might be quite time consuming.

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Thank you very much for the information about Cata. I still have a question though. Were even the hard modes so ridiculously easy?

Several heroic t11 encounters stand out in my mind, like heroic Omnitron Defense System, Ascendant Council, and Al'akir. Sinestra was very difficult as well. 6/7 heroic bosses in Firelands were ridiculously easy, while Ragnaros was almost a guild breaker for us. I have nothing but fond memories of the fight, regardless. And I loved the sound effect for World in Flames. The final phase is just a nightmareish cluster of chaos and panic, in the best possible way, and when you finally kill it you get that rush of satisfaction you haven't felt for any other boss in the expansion.

Dragon Soul was the worst raid in existence, worse than Trial of the Crusader. Worse than Trial of the Crusader. The fights were stupidly simple. I think heroic Spine took us the longest, but only because the fight was so agonizingly long when you have to do 2 burns on the tendons. Ugh. Dragon Soul. Such a trash heap.

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Several heroic t11 encounters stand out in my mind, like heroic Omnitron Defense System, Ascendant Council, and Al'akir. Sinestra was very difficult as well. 6/7 heroic bosses in Firelands were ridiculously easy, while Ragnaros was almost a guild breaker for us. I have nothing but fond memories of the fight, regardless. And I loved the sound effect for World in Flames. The final phase is just a nightmareish cluster of chaos and panic, in the best possible way, and when you finally kill it you get that rush of satisfaction you haven't felt for any other boss in the expansion.

Dragon Soul was the worst raid in existence, worse than Trial of the Crusader. Worse than Trial of the Crusader. The fights were stupidly simple. I think heroic Spine took us the longest, but only because the fight was so agonizingly long when you have to do 2 burns on the tendons. Ugh. Dragon Soul. Such a trash heap.

T11 was mostly just long and tended to burn the guilds out with only AC really standing out, apart from Ragnaros in T12, Baleroc was difficult the first week and was proper fun, Ragnaros was great encounter but last phase left lot to be desired in terms of randomness. DS had Spine which was hard but the whole progression in that tier was humped thanks to bans so no one cared really.

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My thoughts on WotLK

Northerend just wasn't as surprising as Outland continent was when TBC got released. It isn't as dark as it is in Warcraft III. That atmosphere would have been way better. And also they should have put Northerend in classic as a 50-60 zone or 55-60 with Arthas not being a raid target and his home not covered in steel like it's some kind of Mordor cheap copy. Story could have been about resolving mysteries about the Lich King or fighting back invasions of the scourge but not charging to the most epic villain in Warcraft and killing him like it's inevitable and easy. After this vanilla with Northerend included, TBC could have followed. After TBC hype, they could have added challanges to vanilla's raids for the 70s so that vanilla raids wouldn't be forgotten. Cata no. Panda no. Small islands in the sea between Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms should have been added in major patches and maybe Pandaria too in major patches also but with no focus on pandas. In the end, a 2nd and final expansion would be fine that would deal with Sargeras, us fighting him on his realm (with leveling from 70 to 100)

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"I find WotLK was the best expansion pack so far"

I lol'd. Let me guess, you started playing during WotLK or late TBC right before WotLK was released?

Most of the players play here because they don't like the other expansions and because there aren't many Vanilla/TBC servers. My personal opinion is that WotLK is a heap of crap, it's a game that's about collecting shiny items and not about beating challenging bosses. However there are a lot of WotLK servers out there. Why don't you play on other servers if you like this expansion so much?

I guess you're just too bland to enjoy more than just PvE. Arenas is where it was at and by them giving more available options, it had gained a much better and competitive multiplayer experience. It's much better than killing monsters in a forest and waving at some random dude, getting excited at the idea of that's another person. The story line was best up to WotLK. In my opinion, they should've made that their last expansion pack, not the 2nd. I lol'd at your attempt to be condescending with your egotistical opinion. You should be careful who you piss off, since you have no intentions in showing respect.

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I guess you're just too bland to enjoy more than just PvE.

I raided mostly, yes. Blizzard invested a lot of time and work into the PvE content, raids are the main reason I play this game and at least 3/4 of the PvE contented was messed up hence ruining my game experience. Are you implying I must do something else?

Arenas is where it was at and by them giving more available options, it had gained a much better and competitive multiplayer experience.

This is it? Is this you justification for calling WotLK the best expansion so far? TBC had arenas too, so did every other expansion.

It's much better than killing monsters in a forest and waving at some random dude, getting excited at the idea of that's another person.

I read this sentence a couple of times and it still doesn't make any sense.

The story line was best up to WotLK. In my opinion, they should've made that their last expansion pack, not the 2nd.

This doesn't make the content any better.

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