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Official Ret Pally PvE Guide


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#1 seffiroth

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:38 AM

Since my guildmates told me that my other guide humped (hump you guys) I'm making a more legitimate guide that will be more over-encompassing and deep, and be easier to read than my previous 4 pages of wall-of-text shit tucked away between posts about prot tanking. I'll cover that in another guide; I prioritize it below ret because I don't like tanking, it's too stigmatized. Someone else can make the guide too, if they feel like cherrypicking all the info out of that other post.

Okay, so first, race. Roll a human, the mace and sword skill make a big difference, and thats the major factor in picking them. Extra rep and spirit are good too.

Get to 60 and get this spec http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=11215875_2_855d1i5032l5523c510003150. Basically only 3 points can be moved around, the 2 in guardian's favor and 1 out of vengeance and into kings. I wouldn't move anything else.

Proffs: Herb/Alch for mana potions and self-buffing (I love this), Mining/BS for crafting your own weapons (could save as much money as herb/alch) Mining/Engi (trinkets if they aren't bugged, bombs for interupt on bosses/trash dps).

Gear:
Listing every good piece of gear you could get and its source is too much goddamn trouble. Instead I'll provide a priority list for stats and caps that one should keep in mind for ret dps, to gear themselves accordingly.
8% hitcap (5 from gear)>Crit (vengeance up as much as possible)>Spdmg/Str (good to have both)> Procs (once yellow damage starts proccing stuff, the value of proc gear will go up a lot)> Int (you'll never get enough mp5, so a big mana pool is a good thing)> Stam (survive some hits, you'll pull aggro on trash)> Mp5 (doesn't hurt)> other stats.
The ideal set is something like 4set soulforge, 2set lieutenant commander, offset stuff for crit/hit, trinkets and a weap with a good proc, preferably nightfall.

Rotation:
Trash: throw on command, drop a high rank of consecrate, pop an immolation oil if you have one, use holy wrath if they're undead, and judge command/autoattack. If you can see that you can't sustain a high rank of consecrate long enough to not oom before the trash dies, downrank.

Boss: judge crusader (or wis if you aren't the only ret pally with imp. crusader), keep up command and judge it on every cd, and keep down rank one consecrate at all times. Exorcism if the boss is undead. It sounds really simple, and it is, but the drawback is that you'll always have something else to do besides dps that your raid will thank you for more than dpsing. There's always someone who needs a bubble to live, or a heal to live, or something cleansed, or a tank who's out of mana that needs LoH, or something like that. Remember that paladins aren't offensively based in their abilities, so it's definitely good to be defensive in your overall raid outlook. You most likely can't dps for two people (unless you're me or mag) so save the other dps, the raid will thank you.

Side stuff: you can put blessing of sacrifice on the tank to mitigate some incoming damage. When the tanks are dead, DI a healer that's way off on the side to save people a ghost run. You're going to die anyway, just do it. There's also a trick you can do, if you see that the raid will wipe, just bubble and alt+f4. Log back in in a minute or so, and the raid will be dead, and you can rez everyone and save them the run so they can go do something else. People hate ghostrunning.
If people absolutely love having you in a raid, they won't bat an eye at you being a bit lower dps than other people, although you shouldnt if your raid is competent and you can dps in a constant fashion. I do upwards of 400 dps on non-undead targets, and around 600-700 on undeads, partially buffed. You can do it too, and in fact it is the easiest part. The tricky part is doing damage while doing all the nitpicky paladin crap that everyone wants paladins to do.
But if your dps is sub-par, you can make people ignore it by bringing buff food to the raid and elixirs to the raid. Mana pots and health pots are good too, along with rage pots for warriors. If you're saving people money on consumable bills, who cares if you do 100 dps less than a rogue. It also helps if you actually know your class and use the majority of your buttons.
For the love of god, get a healset. Every paladin needs a healset, i don't care what spec you are. Most fights are bad for melee dps, and other than that all you can do is heal, so be geared for it.

Consumables:
Elixirs: I use mongoose, greater int, greater arcane, giants, and sages. To that you could also add mageblood, brute force, and a flask of some sort. But i do not have those recipes.
Potions: major mana potions (9g on the ah), dreamless sleep potions, greater dreamless sleep potions
Misc.: dark runes, demonic runes, smoked desert dumplings, int/str/agi/stam scrolls, rumsey rum black label.

I think that covers just about all of it. If I missed anything obvious, point it out.
Lolret

#2 Bjarki2330

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:45 AM

You inspired me, mate. I'm making a Retribution Paladin next and it's a final.
Your guide has really changed the way I see Paladin's. ^^ Thank you and +Rep for you. ;-)

Sincerely,

Bjarki.

If you'll need me I'll be over there by the Feenix.

#3 Quero

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 09:22 AM

Oh damn, Seffiroth, why wont you learn you lesson as already stated here: 'A more hybrid approach to pally dps Looks neat' .
I will quote myself from there:

View PostQuero, on 03 August 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

Everyday someone awakes from sleep and thinks 'today Imma show the world the mighty DPS of a ret Paladin in vanillla!'. In the one year I play here I saw hundreds of ppl trying to convince the rest of the world, that paladins can DPS in vanilla, but they can't unless they are BiS geared and all enemies are undead or demon. And even when this is given the DPS is just comparable to a t1 geared rogue.
So here is a quick summon of the facts:

- It doesnt matter what 'Pre-Raid'-gear you have
- It doesnt matter where you specc you points especially in
- It doesnt matter how much +Stats u can get in w/e
- It doesnt matter how many pots you use
- It doesnt matter how many YouTube videos you post

Retribution or 'Hybrid' Paladin is NO and I repeat myself here NO viable DPS class/specc/whatever in vanilla World of Warcraft and it will never be. I am sorry if this hurt your feelings, but it is simply the truth.

and please:

View Postseffiroth, on 04 August 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:

Stam (survive some hits, you'll pull aggro on trash)

When do you get aggro at trashmobs as someone who deals 0 DPS? When the tank is deaf, blind and has one arm bound on his back?
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#4 Randompug.

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 09:37 AM

Yup, ret paladins will never be good in PvE but I do like 1 ret paladin in a raid with Nightfall + whom will you give t2`s? So that`s why there are guilds which have 1 active shadow priest, 1 active nightfall ret paladin and that`s about it from unordinary classes.

#5 Sulfuras

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 10:00 AM

ORLY? Can you please post video about your DPS?

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#6 Yin

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 10:07 AM

View Postseffiroth, on 04 August 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:


Gear:
7% hitcap (4 from gear)

Good thing ur not an electric car because here comes some pure 98 oktan premium knowledge: The hit cap for using a 2hander in PvE is 9% against mobs at lvl 63 or bosses.

(I stopped reading this guide after i saw u saying the hitcap is 7%)

Yin - 60 Human Rogue - Emerald Dream (Active)

Hopp - 70 Human Rogue - Archangel (Retired)

Fizzy - 70 Draenei Shaman - Archangel (Retired)

Milkcow - 60 Tauren Warrior - Warsong (Retired)

Anotherguy - 60 Human Mage - Warsong (Retired)


#7 Sulfuras

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 10:55 AM

View PostAnotherguy, on 04 August 2011 - 10:07 AM, said:

Good thing ur not an electric car because here comes some pure 98 oktan premium knowledge: The hit cap for using a 2hander in PvE is 9% against mobs at lvl 63 or bosses.

(I stopped reading this guide after i saw u saying the hitcap is 7%)

Hitcap is 8% VS lvl 63/boss ;-)

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#8 seffiroth

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 07:03 PM

Fixed. Um, I guess I'll try. I'll look up this thing they call fraps and let you know what luck I have.
Ret paladins are the most likely to pull aggro off a tank and keep it due to high bursts and they have no threat reducing talents and bubbles have somewhat long cooldowns.

#9 dAxpeDDa

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:13 PM

lol, i just looked up on wowwiki and its really 8%, i was really curious about it and so i investigated a bit becuase im very sure that the hit cap is 9%
so the first thing i did i looked up the hit topic history in wowwiki, it seems that it really was 9%, it changed to 8% in wotlk, but nobody knew that, and so elitejerks (rly love that ppl) found that out and tested it really hard, so they found out that the 9% changed in wotlk to 8%

well, i hope some day there will be a dummy to test it on the server, but i think u shouldnt go with neither 8% nor 9% cause i would test it how it is really on pservers^^

but on retail hit cap on PREBC was: 9% for lvl 60 vs 63 to never miss :)

#10 Sulfuras

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:15 PM

its always was 8% :-P

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#11 dAxpeDDa

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:22 PM

rofl ...

http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Hit&oldid=1170469
http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t49865-paladin_retribution_pve/ - "You need 8%, not the BC 9%, to be 2H melee hitcapped vs skull level mobs (bosses)."
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t38095-retesting_hit_table_assumptions/#post999574

just read before u talk ...

#12 seffiroth

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 07:50 AM

Uhh well I did 277 dps on the molten core trash we did today. I still have the dmg meter saved on my acct, if you guys want a picture. It's not great, I'm sure, but I was 5th in a group of 20, so I don't think that's bad. I was behind 3 rogues and a lock. My gear isn't very good, but I was certainly not a drag on the raid or anything of that sort.

#13 Yin

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 09:54 AM

View PostSulfuras, on 04 August 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:

Hitcap is 8% VS lvl 63/boss ;-)

Step 1: equip a 2hander

Step 2: attack a boss with 8% hit

Step 3: notice that you miss

Step 4: Equip 9% hit

Step 5: notice that you never miss

Step 6: ?????

Step 7: profit

Yin - 60 Human Rogue - Emerald Dream (Active)

Hopp - 70 Human Rogue - Archangel (Retired)

Fizzy - 70 Draenei Shaman - Archangel (Retired)

Milkcow - 60 Tauren Warrior - Warsong (Retired)

Anotherguy - 60 Human Mage - Warsong (Retired)


#14 Quero

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:00 AM

View Postseffiroth, on 05 August 2011 - 07:50 AM, said:

Uhh well I did 277 dps on the molten core trash we did today. I still have the dmg meter saved on my acct, if you guys want a picture. It's not great, I'm sure, but I was 5th in a group of 20, so I don't think that's bad. I was behind 3 rogues and a lock. My gear isn't very good, but I was certainly not a drag on the raid or anything of that sort.

I suppose your in a fresh guild that recently started raiding, so no wonder why your atm see yourself on the DPS meter. The problems will come in the future, when the DPS of your fellas scales with their gear and yours dont. That means you will always stay on the level you are now while the DPS of the other classes will rise higher and higher as soon as they get propper gear.
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#15 dAxpeDDa

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 01:20 PM

why does the dps of pala dont scale with gear? what type of fact is that oO

soc scales with weapon dmg (weapon,ap,str), spell dmg and melee crit
judgement of command scales with scales with spell dmg and melee crit
judgement of crusader scales with spell dmg

aaaaaaaand BIG NEWS: autoattack scales with weapon dmg too? i think thats something nobody knows when saying things like: "when the DPS of your fellas scales with their gear and yours dont." ... blubb


and if u say now what i say is right, but it doesnt scale enough comparing to other classes, then i think youre not so wrong :)
but i rly think that seffiroth is just a good player, im very sure if he played a rogue, he would do more dps then with his ret pala, but the real question is if u just say palas dont make as much dps as a rogue and thats why they hump, then wtf, does that mean we just take the classes we need for debuffs/buffs and the rest should be rogues for dd just cause they top the dmgmeter? wtf no -.-

i think what rly matters for dps is skill, i mean sure there is a limit, but wtf, just find a 40 (FORTY!) men raid where everybody really 100% knows how to play his class and doesnt even loose 50 dps in his dps rotation, movement, etc.

and i think the most important thing for a ret pala in pve is just dont forget that ure STILL a SUPPORT CLASS, so if ure the 5th in dps, then ure rly playing very good, but if ure 10th and u rly use all your bop, bosacrifice, loh, etc. then youre a rly good paladin, and if the raid leader says "yo, u hump in dps man" then hes just a n00b cause he doesnt see how valueable u are

its like when a mage would be 10th in dps nobody says something -.-


IMPORTANT NOTE:
just dont get me wrong guys, im still NOT supporting ret pala in pve, ret pala is just NOT the optimal roll for pve, cause in an OPTIMAL situation its very UNLIKELY that a ret pala does good dps compared to other classes, but what is really an optimal situation in pve ... nothing is out of question, even ret pala, it just depends on skill, thats why i love prebc

#16 Quero

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 01:41 PM

View PostdAxpeDDa, on 05 August 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

soc scales with weapon dmg (weapon,ap,str), spell dmg and melee crit
judgement of command scales with scales with spell dmg and melee crit
judgement of crusader scales with spell dmg

When a warrior needs 10 str to increase his damage noticable a Retpaladin need 50. Since this is impossible at a certain level the so called Paladin 'DPS' does not scale with the gear. no. When a classe needs the 5x amount of stats to increase its DPS this is no scaling for me, sorry.

View PostdAxpeDDa, on 05 August 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

and i think the most important thing for a ret pala in pve is just dont forget that ure STILL a SUPPORT CLASS, so if ure the 5th in dps, then ure rly playing very good, but if ure 10th and u rly use all your bop, bosacrifice, loh, etc. then youre a rly good paladin, and if the raid leader says "yo, u hump in dps man" then hes just a n00b cause he doesnt see how valueable u are.

For the buffs and everything, a Paladin can support with, we have the so called Healerdins, to explain it to you, it is the ONLY AVAILABLE AND USEFULL SPECC IN VANILLA FOR A PALADIN because the Paladin can support his grp with his spells and is also a viable healer.

View PostdAxpeDDa, on 05 August 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

then hes just a n00b cause he doesnt see how valueable u are

On what matter is a Retpaladin more valueable then a Healpaladin?

View PostdAxpeDDa, on 05 August 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

even ret pala, it just depends on skill

No, it doesn't. Stop pretending on your idiologic thoughts. The limitation of Paladin DPS is very high. To tell it on numbers, so you might better understand I make an example here, which should be understand by everyone:

Lets say the maximum damage output of the best damage dealing class is 100. 100 is the absolute limit of damage for ALL classes. (This is not 100% correct, just for explaination reason)
A rogue is able to reach the 100.
Mages/Warrios are able to reach 95.
Warlocks are able to reach 93.
Hunters are able to reach 87.
I dont know Shamans.
Retribution Paladins wont come over 50. Never.
No matter if they have full T1 or full T2,5. 50 is the maximum a Retpaladin can reach. No matter what pots he uses, what elixirs, what ever. He will never even get above 50. No matter if he has the perfect rotation, no matter how good the player is. It is a by Blizzard invented damage blockade a Paladin can never pass.

As soon as you understand that the Paladin class is crippeled at a certain level you might stop thinking with that Paladins will ever be any good in damage specc in vanilla WoW. This will never happen. Never. Simple as that.
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#17 dAxpeDDa

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 01:58 PM

View PostQuero, on 05 August 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

On what matter is a Retpaladin more valueable then a Healpaladin?

well i never said that^^

View PostQuero, on 05 August 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

As soon as you understand that the Paladin class is crippeled at a certain level you might stop thinking with that Paladins will ever be any good in damage specc in vanilla WoW. This will never happen. Never. Simple as that.

View PostdAxpeDDa, on 05 August 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

just dont get me wrong guys, im still NOT supporting ret pala in pve, ret pala is just NOT the optimal roll for pve

so u agree with me^^

why arent u reading what i said? u really have some aggression in u quero :), just calm down, as i said somewhere in the forum before, ret pala is not a pve option

but there are some paladins out there, who are that good with playing their class that they just stand out among all that n00bs, its not like they will ever do more dmg, but they can do enough dmg to count as dd, its not because ret pala is a good dd, its just cause others are n00bs ;), that is my whole point^^

ps: i just remembered a pug raid i had on retail on gruul, it was awesome fun, i hit 5th on dmg meter and i was still equipped in blue lvl 65 items while others where full epic, u know who was first? a tank ... it was rly awesome how we all qq about that ^^, we didnt even made it to gruul, only those prebosses dont remember their names xD

#18 Sulfuras

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 02:05 PM

/facepalm

Yes, pala have auto-attack, he have SoC - thats mean he can deal dmg, yes PALA can DPS!

But pala's DPS is so hump in PvE, so I pref Holy priest as DPS compaired to "skilled" ret pala.

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#19 dAxpeDDa

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 02:19 PM

View PostSulfuras, on 05 August 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

/facepalm

Yes, pala have auto-attack, he have SoC - thats mean he can deal dmg, yes PALA can DPS!

But pala's DPS is so hump in PvE, so I pref Holy priest as DPS compaired to "skilled" ret pala.

i shit on "skilled" ret pala, the only thing im interested in are palas who do more dps then other dds in the raid, if they rly exist, and if they are then the raid are n00bs, then i would prefer them instead of n00bs, if i had a raid like this one seffiroth is in, i would prefer seffiroth who is 5th on the dmg meter instead of any other dd who wants to join, cause it seems he will be the biggest n00b i ever saw if he is behind seffiroth

it seems u too have a lot of a grudge against ret pala, maybe u had a bad dream about he will replace u in dps?^^ im sure this will never become reality big boy :)

but thanks for your agree sulfuras^^

#20 Quero

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 02:25 PM

View PostdAxpeDDa, on 05 August 2011 - 01:58 PM, said:

u really have some aggression in u quero

Everyday another idiot trying to corrupt ppls mind by saying Retf*ckheaddin is viable DPS in raids makes me mad.
SOMAD.
My advise for all the Retpaladins out here: Log out, deinstall your vanilla World of Warcraft and go play Hello Kitty Island.
SOMAD.
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